As Danny Care flicks back through his experiences of playing the All Blacks, he recalls this drowning feeling of bewilderment after defeats.
While he was part of their memorable win over the Kiwis in 2012, it's the confusion after a defeat to the All Blacks which sticks with him. "You're sat there playing it back," Care tells ESPN. "At about 75 minutes, you're thinking, 'we're going to win here.' Then a few minutes later, you've lost it by two tries and everyone's scratching their heads in the change room going, why has that happened?"
An England victory over the All Blacks is usually a marquee moment for any generation. Out of their 46 meetings over 120 years, England have won just eight of them. Their last triumph was the 19-7 victory in the 2019 Rugby World Cup semifinal, regarded as the greatest performance since, well, they knocked over the All Blacks in Wellington back in 2003. That win foreshadowed their 2003 World Cup win, and saw them manage at one stage with 13 men. England's last victory at Twickenham was in 2012, a win over New Zealand is a treasured achievement.
"It was one of the greatest wins for our generation," Care says. "But sitting here 13 years on, it's mad really isn't it to say that to beat the All Blacks once at home was that generation's greatest achievement." Steve Borthwick's side on Saturday have the chance to secure England's first win against the All Blacks on home soil since that 2012 win. It's on their minds, but they're trying to talk about it as being just like any other match. Speaking soon after their win over Fiji last Saturday, Jamie George said: "What a lot of teams do is sit back in awe of the All Blacks with their history and all their incredible players. It's easy to do that. I've probably done it."
Those that came before George can relate. "Playing the All Blacks is a funny thing," Chris Ashton, who beat the All Blacks in 2012, tells ESPN.
"You act in a certain way against them, I don't know why. Until you've tasted it, you can't really get an understanding of why you've given them so much leeway when you know you should have played better." Care adds: "I think I've played them nine times, and in two or three matches, you're one score away, and you end up with a loss. I just think they've got so much history and tradition and there's just something special about that team and that shirt. Every time you play against them, I think whether subconsciously or consciously, you're always aware that at any point you can get stung." Current Japan coach Eddie Jones oversaw England's 2019 win in the World Cup; in the build-up he took a samurai sword and sliced through a kiwi.
"I think they still have an aura," Jones tells ESPN. "You hear players talking about it. They talk about how the All Blacks do things, and how the All Blacks are this and that. They're outstanding rugby country and players -- but like anyone, if you put enough pressure in the right areas you can do it. They want to be big, but if you can make it small, you can beat them."
The first England win over the All Blacks was back in 1936, known as the Prince Obolensky match. Since then, England won in Auckland in 1973, at Twickenham in 1983 and 1993, and then came the back-to-back victories in 2002 (31-28 at Twickenham) and 2003 in Wellington which established England as World Cup favourites.
In 2012, England put together their finest performance of Stuart Lancaster's tenure to beat the All Blacks 38-21. "There was a bit of chat the All Blacks had been ill during the week, but Manu [Tuilagi] was unplayable that day, it was just a case of give it to Manu and let him do his thing," Care says.
Ashton adds: "I still thought in that game, 'there's still time, they will come back, they will come back, they will come back.' It was just only until it was mathematically impossible with time on the clock that I believed. You just always feel that no matter what the score is, they're always the players that they've got, they'll always come up with something." Since that win in November 2012, the 2019 triumph is swallowed by a tale of All Black dominance. As Care said, players are left bewildered after having been chewed up and spat out by the Kiwis. "You're thinking how has that happened?" Care says. "Like, when are we gonna actually go the next step and get this, get this elusive win over them."
Looking back at what was said after each defeat from 2014 to now, you can see similar themes. From the three Tests in New Zealand in 2014, Lancaster was left lamenting a lack of accuracy in the final 20 minutes in Auckland, then captain Chris Robshaw said they needed to be more ruthless in Dunedin, and a week later Lancaster was upset with how England didn't give them enough "scoreboard pressure" in Hamilton. "You always had to be on [the] scoreboard first and get going first. If you ever fell behind, I felt it was almost just pointless continuing the game," Ashton says.
In 2018, England got within a point at home, and thought they'd won it at the last, only for Sam Underhill's try to be ruled out for a Courtney Lawes offside. A year later, England put together that statement win against the Kiwis in Yokohama. "We went into the game having spent the buildup trying to get rid of this All Black myth, or aura, about how they are invincible," Joe Marler said after the victory. "I just automatically thought they have the best players in the world from one to 15 because that's how you think."
England's mood was set by Jones wielding that Samurai sword, then came the (unproven) allegations of spying and by the time the All Blacks lined up for the haka, England formed an arrowhead-shape to answer it.
"We tried to pick a team that was abrasive -- you need abrasive players. Once you match them in physicality and fitness, you're getting there. For the haka, we had a chat about forming a circle around them but settled on the v-shape. We wanted to quieten the crowd and to make New Zealand think this won't be a walk in the park, and morphing that emotion into 'we're here to take you on.'"
Owen Farrell stared the haka down with a thin grin spreading across his face, while Marler crossed the halfway line and incurred England a fine.
"It's a good plan when you win, but if you don't you're arrogant," Jones says. "So in hindsight, it was a good thing!"
After the match then All Blacks coach Steve Hansen was asked by a journalist if he was worried about his team's perceived lack of commitment. It was a question suggesting the All Blacks' defeat was because they hadn't been mentally ready for the match, rather than England playing to an incredible level.
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Hansen responded by offering the journalist outside for a stern word. The two met again in November 2022, England coming back from 25-6 down to draw 25-25, but that proved to be Jones' last autumn in charge of England. Steve Borthwick succeeded him and ahead of their tour to New Zealand in 2024, he remembered what it was like to face the All Blacks, drawing on memories from his own playing career. "I've been in squads that have got on the plane with no real belief," Borthwick told reporters. "There have been some series where that's happened."
England pushed them close over two Tests, but came away with familiar regrets. Captain Jamie George said "fine margins" saw them lose 16-15 in Dunedin, and looked to the positives of their 24-17 defeat a week later. The All Blacks visited Twickenham in 2024 and two late missed kicks from George Ford allowed the Kiwis to squeeze home with a 24-22 victory. "That legacy does play a part, I reckon," Care says. "That match when Fordy hit the post with the penalty and then just missed the drop goal, if that's against any other team would that have gone on the inside of the post? There's just something against the All Blacks that if you don't put them away, you will not win the Test match." So judging by what's been said by those who have fallen short in the past, to beat the All Blacks you need to: look beyond their history and aura, land the first punch and finish any and every opportunity. Phew. It's not a simple task.
"I do remember thinking it's quite easy to get lost in how good the All Blacks are," Ashton says.
"But I do think that slight aura of you're inevitable gonna get beat has gone ... But then again, we're sat here talking about how few wins England have had!"
New Zealand's win record under Scott Robertson sits at 76%, and there's a perception the All Blacks are fallible. But try telling that to Scotland who had a shot at immortality last weekend, only to be powerless to stop the Kiwi machine once it clicked into gear. The All Blacks are going for their own Grand Slam tour, looking for a clean sweep of victories on northern hemisphere soil for the first time in 15 years. Ashton feels England have it in them to beat the All Blacks, but it'll need experienced heads to steer them through. "A few of the team haven't started against New Zealand. The coaches can give you all the information and attach emotion to it, but without you actually having a taste for it, it's quite hard for you to get an understanding of what it's like," Ashton says.
"I hope the occasion doesn't get to them, leaving them coming away from the game going 'oh, you know what, I should have done better there.'" Borthwick's team must stay true to their gameplan to beat the All Blacks on Saturday, but also find a mentality where they can park previous history, see past the All Blacks' incredible history and reduce the contest to rugby fundamentals and small margins.
Jones' advice, recalling the 2019 win: "Hit them first. Hit them hard. Don't wait for them. Soon as you start thinking about the aura, you sit back and watch them. You need to be the show, not become part of it."
Borthwick's team are on a nine-match winning run. They're on an upwards trajectory, but to become the ninth team to beat the All Blacks would see them join an elite group and signal true progress. "What a boost that would give them to go 10 in a row by beating the All Blacks," Care said. "Ask any England player 'if you could be part of a winning team against anyone, who would you pick?'
"They'd all pick the All Blacks."