Tom Izzo and the Michigan State Spartans are likely to begin the 2019-20 season ranked No. 1 in college basketball, a program with a lot of returning talent in a sport in which "a lot of returning talent" has become an increasingly rare circumstance. All-American point guard and Wooden Award candidate Cassius Winston is back in East Lansing after leading MSU to the eighth Final Four of the Izzo era in April, and the team has a realistic chance to win the program's first national championship in exactly 20 years (2000).
I sat down with Izzo to talk about the construction of this year's title hopefuls and the difficulty of keeping a roster and a program intact amid NBA and transfer decisions.
Cassius Winston and Xavier Tillman decided to return to the team this year, and Nick Ward opted to leave. How much "recruiting" goes into getting players with professional opportunities to stay? Is the message dependent on the player's situation?
It's never a cookie-cutter message from me. With Miles Bridges and Gary Harris, they decided to stay [for their sophomore seasons]. [Jaren] Jackson wanted to stay -- he went too far up on the [NBA draft] ladder, but his parents wanted him to stay. Then I had a kid, Deyonta Davis, who left early, and it was semi-disastrous for him. [Davis was selected in the second round of the 2016 NBA draft and has started just six NBA games in three seasons.]
I have had enough opportunities to go to the NBA, and I have friends in the NBA. People would be surprised how many NBA coaches and GMs don't want these kids to come out as early as they do. When they do come out, they have no choice but to draft some of them. To try to get all the right information to the kid and his parents is important.
When Bridges wanted to come back, I know people thought I was holding him back. For my program, if he goes out and is a top-10 pick, that's better for my recruiting than if he stays and we win a national championship. That's sad, but that's the reality of recruiting today. Each circumstance is different. With Bridges and Davis, finances were an issue. With Jackson and Harris, it was not.
I want to make sure they don't just go and have a cup of coffee in the league. It's hard to make the league. We forget how hard it is to make it and stay there. With [a player such as] Davis, you better be ready physically. A lot of kids can make that happen. But how many are ready mentality to take what goes on in the NBA? We talk about it earlier with our players if they are thinking about it. We let agents come in earlier, even if the kids are juniors, to get everyone on the same page before the season starts. I am going to survive, and my program is going to survive, but the kids only have one chance at it, for the most part. Whether people believe it or not, I would say 90 percent of coaches care about their kids. For the kids who want to go pro, I am not trying to keep them. In recruiting, you are always trying to get a recruit. Here, I am trying to recruit them to do the right thing for themselves while giving them all the right information.
You're dealing with the departure of Ward and the graduations of Matt McQuaid and Kenny Goins, but you have a good recruiting class coming in with Rocket Watts Jr., Malik Hall and Julius Marble. What was your initial impression of those three players, and how do you expect them to help you this season?
Watts was the highest-rated kid. I really like Hall, who comes from a really good program in Sunrise Christian (Kansas), and we took Marble on a recommendation from former NBA coach Bob Hill. Bob Hill's son coached him in high school. He's a raw and tough type, and we love him. Watts has the most talent, Hall is going to be very good, and I like the attitude and effort of Marble. This class is going to be good for us.
We have a newly coined version of what we try to do now in recruiting. We are trying to get what we call "OKG": our kind of guy. By going to Final Fours, you might be able to get a better player, but not always is he your kind of guy.
Tony Bennett talked to us about recruiting the Hauser brothers, who were reported to be a package deal when they announced they'd be transferring from Marquette, but they decided to split up. Joey came to Michigan State, and Sam transferred to Virginia. What were the mechanics of that recruitment from your perspective?
I think Tony thought they were a package deal. I think [I] thought so too. [laughs] We both thought they were. It was one of those deals where they are really close. While playing together, there were a lot of comparisons, and I am not sure either guy liked that. At the end of the day, we did not have a second scholarship, and as crazy as it sounds, it might have worked to our advantage. Not that they did not want to be together, but I think both guys are very happy.
What will Joey bring to your program, and what role will he have during his sit-out year? Do you anticipate him getting a waiver to get a third year of eligibility back? [Hauser sat out in 2017-18 as a medical redshirt.]
At times Joey is our best player. He is really talented, skilled at 6-foot-9 and way more athletic than we originally thought. The area of growth for him will be to get stronger and be better with the ball. He is going to be an unbelievable scout-team player [laughs]. [Legendary MSU coach] Jud Heathcote said two days before the national championship game, when they played Larry Bird and Indiana State, they had Magic Johnson on the scout team to [simulate playing against] Larry Bird. He was the only one who could do what Larry did. I think Joey can play anyone, from a point guard through a center, on our scout team.
I think there is a great chance of him getting a waiver for a third year. He was hurt when he went to Marquette. It would be a disservice not to get it if he needed it. I am hoping he won't need it.
What is your program philosophy on transfers and graduate transfers?
I hate getting kids on a transfer, and I am still not a fan of it. I understand it's all part of the [current] day in this business. We keep trying to do a better job recruiting. We recruit less numbers but with harder recruitment. By that I mean really getting to know the prospects as freshmen and sophomores and building strong relationships with them.
With all the freedom of transfers and playing right away, it could get ugly. I am concerned about the lessons we are teaching our kids. For the coaches, it's hard to keep your culture. It hurts your culture and your chemistry. A school like ours will have a couple that will test the [NBA] waters, a couple who will graduate and a couple who will transfer because it is the "in" thing to do. Recently somebody asked me, "How many scholarships do you have to give?" I said, "I tell my staff to recruit as if we have about six or seven scholarships every year." [laughs]
I feel bad for the mid-major programs. Look at Damion Lee, who transferred [from Drexel] to Louisville. ... it cost [then-Drexel coach] Bruiser Flint his job. They all think transferring is the answer. Now we have graduate transfers among the power conferences -- that is worrying me. I have no problem with transferring, but we all know people are tampering with kids. Is that good for the camaraderie of the profession? We had [more than 1,000] kids transfer last year, and it's only going to get worse. Heck, I will survive, but I don't like the lessons we are sending. I agree you shouldn't hold anyone back from leaving, but there is tampering going on. Some tamper in desperation of losing their job. If guys can play right away, it will be worse. If they have to sit [a season], there will be less.
I still have kids transfer, and I still take transfers. Kids make decisions for a million different reasons. We can't condemn them. When you don't get them, don't get mad.
Would you change the current NCAA transfer rules?
I would keep the rule the way it is, [but] if the coach leaves for any reason, kids should be able to play right away. I completely understand the graduate transfer, but 99 percent of the time you can't get your masters in one year. Ninety percent of the kids who transfer are really not NBA prospects. When you transfer, you lose credits up to a half of a year. If it's about education, why not let them sit, learn the system and get another year of education? Maybe start on your masters?
I will stick with this: Would you want your son or daughter to think when the going gets tough, instead of the tough get going, they get out of Dodge? You can't just leave a job and get another one right away. I really believe we are hurting our kids and not teaching them lessons of fighting through a situation.
Heck, [former Michigan State star] Morris Peterson wanted to transfer every day. Jud used to say, "Every freshman is unhappy. They never average what they averaged in high school as a freshmen in college."
Your first job as a Division I assistant was under Heathcote, who hired you to a part-time role in September 1983. What has changed about the recruiting landscape in college basketball since that time, and what hasn't changed?
It's funny. People think a lot has changed. I think what's changed is the number of people that get in on a kid's decision. I think everybody wants a piece of these kids and families. It makes it more difficult for coaches, as you have to try to please so many people. There are more people involved in the process because the stakes seem to [be] higher. Everybody has to tell a recruit now not only that he is going to be a pro but that he is going to be a pro in a year or two. I think most people want to go where there is sincerity and honesty. Many don't want the pie-in-the-sky version. I tell the parents that the process of recruiting can ruin the kids sometimes.
What's the same is the kids who want a good process. They want academic structure in place. We've got guys like Jaren Jackson and Gary Harris coming back and taking classes. It was important to them during the process.
It's a cliché, but it's been true for 10 million years. "Discipline is the greatest form of love you can show somebody." If you care enough to discipline, you care about them.
I think the great players want discipline. In today's system, I believe that some kids would rather have a chance to be a pro than win a championship. I tell everyone today the chances of becoming a pro increase [if you win a title] because [the NBA wants] winners too.